Answers to “beer stein” questions of interest. [3]

PAGE 3  – And a reminder from Page 1 = Here is the deal with the beer stein questions folks:

Don’t ask the questions .if you don’t want to hear the answers!

Steve

A quick summary of the “subjects” of questions found  below – ONLY ON PAGE 3:

[26] A very nice set of 3 German Student society  “hob-nail” beer steins.

[27] A “pass cup,” or what ?

[28] A Naval “Regimental” reproduction?

[29] An interesting “little” pewter stein, from where? 

[30] Westerwald, “newer / safer” saltglazed processed , stoneware beer drinking vessel.

[31] Why no roster on a “Reservist’s” stein?

[32]  “I’m wondering if you could tell me something about the stein  in the pictures,  I mean its origin of course.”

[33]  An “Old Sheffield Plate” pub mug, English,  late 1700’s.

[34] A 1893 Swedish tankard.

[35] A silver plated copper stein based on a 1600’s pewter one.

[36] A St. Louis Silver Co. “pass cup.”

[37] An unusual antique copper stein = A cross between cultures.

[38] A leaky glass bottom stein.

[39] The problem with dating older Westerwald steins.

[40] Pretty and well done but not a beer stein.

[26]

On 8/10/2011 10:44 AM, Marlene  wrote:
Hi Steve,

I stumbled onto your fabulous website on line. I never realized just how vast the history of beer steins was nor the incredible number of exquisite designs that exist in the world. You’ve done an amazing job of bringing it together; it’s a true contribution to collectors and enthusiasts!

A number of years ago, I acquired a set of three steins that I have not been able to identify. They are dated 1909 and each bears a coat of arms and some names and signatures under the porcelain lid. The glass is heavy and the base foot is cut and sharp while the diamond points are smooth. The thicknesses of the glass varies from stein to stein. The mystery has gone on long enough! I am hoping that you can tell me something about them from my photos that I have attached. Any help with this would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thank you for your time and assistance.

Best Regards
Marlene

On 8/10/11 3:06 PM, Stephen L. Smith wrote:
Hello Marlene,

I have received your email and know exactly what these are. Thank you for emailing me. They are great examples of what they are. However, I am in the middle of a large project here at my home (involving guess what ? = steins!)   It may take me a day or two to find the info on the Coats of Arms displayed – I have it just have to get to it. (Excellent photos, Marlene!)

Steve

On 8/15/2011 10:14 AM, Marlene  wrote:
Hi Steve,

Thanks again for your reply. I understand that you have to dig out the information about the coat of arms as time permits  you to do so, I was wondering, however, if in the meantime you could identify the genre maybe just give me the category or the maker of the steins.  Thanks a million.
Marlene

On 8/15/11 10:21 AM, Stephen L. Smith wrote:
Dear Marlene,

This sounds like you are wishing to sell these quickly, say as on eBay?  These are written on EACH one of my pages. Did you see / read them ?

for the future selling of steins on auction sites such as eBay, etc. Go to the web site for “Stein Collector’s International” and click on “Stein Talk”, someone there might help you.

Steve

On 8/15/2011 12:09 PM, Marlene  wrote:

I did not recognize the design genre on your site for my steins. You have so many incredible examples of what look like museum quality that I couldn’t see mine! You’re correct, I do wish to sell them as I have no job income at the moment. I plan to let the market decide their value but I would like to properly identify them to attract the collectors that might be interested. Right now I have one listed on eBay with a generic title as antique stein.

If the stein has some special attribute, I would like to reach the right audience. I hate to sound desperate, but the first of the month draws nigh and the mortgage is due. I’m not asking for a valuation and certainly understand why you don’t offer to do them .Just looking for guidance in identifying the type of stein I have . From there, I can read about them.

 Best Regards, Marlene

Marlene,

Realizing how rotten this US economy is,  I will make an exception  just for you young lady.

The type of glass stein  is called “Hobnail glass —- (after the “hob nail” put into old boots to make them last longer = immaterial to your sale)

These steins have porcelain inserts with hand presentations from one member of a German Dueling Society / Association to other member, in memory of a duel, or just a gift to a fellow Society Association member.

IT WOULD BE A SHAME TO BREAK THESE UP AS THEY WERE ALL 3 GIVEN TO THE SAME GUY FROM THREE DIFFERENT  ASSOCIATION’S MEMBERS.  (Most likely in a dueling competition.)

For a very good basic beginning about the stein category, go to: http://www.steincollectors.org/

then go to LIBRARY (TAB) AND CLICK ON IT –    THEN GO DOWN TO:   Student Association Steins ~  by Master Steinologist Walt Vogdes   (a friend of mine.)

If it were me – [1]   I’d put the word’s “Student Society,” in your ad as I personally think more collector’s are familiar with that search term than “Student Association.”

The coat of arms on each lid is their own “Societies’ ” unique “arms.”   (NOT CRESTS!)

[2] There are a lot of German collectors looking for these, around this time frame (1909)  so you may wish to advertise on eBay world wide and also include the German words;

“Studentenkrug,”      “Studenten krug” (Krug = stein )

[3] and if you have enough room left, add this word,  “Porzellandeckel”
which means “porcelain lid” in German), as some collector s will look under that search word too.

Hope this helps your sales.  Please let me know.

Steve

You are a gem. Thank you so much for the description. I will learn more about my steins with your direction and hopefully will find someone who appreciates them. I have also gained an appreciation for the old steins having seen the many beautiful examples on your website. I appreciate your work and your taking the time to assist me!!!

All the Best,   Marlene

[27]     Good afternoon,

Firstly, may I congratulate you on your web site – I viewed it a month ago and found it fascinating, but I must tell you that I couldnt access it today (I kept getting a message that there was something wrong with the website and it would not open up on the screen).

My neighbour has recently purchased a copper(?) passing cup from a flea market in France, and as he does not have access to the internet, he has asked me to source information for him. That is how I came about in finding your website.

I’ve ascertained that the cup comes from a town called PAU where Henry IV of France was born, and shows their motto (URBIS PALLADIUM ET GENTIS) and their coat of arms.

One thing I cannot find information about, is the passing cup itself. I’ve looked through your website and assumed it is a ‘passing cup’ as it has two handles, but, as you are the expert and have seen many many cups during your passion of collecting them, I was hoping you may be able to shed some light on it.

I’ve attached a few photos herewith, and if you’d like to have the photos for your collection, please do so as I am happy for you to use them. The cup measures approx 6.5 inches tall, 5 3/4 inches in diameter at the base and 3 1/4 inches across the mouth of the cup. Unfortunately I am unable to read the signature.

With much excitement and thanking you in advance,   Debbie

Hello Debbie,

You may know this already:    The city’s Coat of Arms, Origin/meaning:
The peacock in the arms is canting, from Paon or Paou. The cows are taken from the arms of the former Duchy of Béarn to which the city belonged. The oldest known use of the arms dates from 1680. The chief was added in 1829 as a memory to King Henri IV, who founded the royal family of the Bourbons.
 Now to your friend’s drinking vessel. Probably not  a “pass cup” in my mind.  [1] Too small height wise. [2] Also too narrow at the top to drink from = 3.25 inches, especially with the rolled lip being as thick as it is.
[3] The idea of a pass cup is to supply at least 5 to 6 people with a round before having to refill.

Of course one can drink out of anything with a round opening at the top (actually it doesn’t really need to be round as hexagonal vessels were quite popular in the olden days
[see: “TALE NO. 2 – “IT WAS ADVERTISED AS: “DUTCH 830 SILVER RENAISSANCE Stl 19C GOBLET”
 @ http://www.steveonsteins.com/silver]
  but I am sorry, but my S.W.A.G. is that it was meant to be two handled vase.

 Steve  

.

 [28]

Hello Stephen,

We have a regimental stein listed on eBay as item xxxxxxxxxxxx
Someone we don’t know sent us a message thru the eBay system with absolutely no comment other than
your website address (http://www.steveonsteins.com/reservists-regimental-reproductions)

I clicked on your site and scrolled down thru the various points but it seems there is more than one page to
read and I was only able to see the first page. Possibly information I could use to determine if this is or is not
a repro would be shown on the pages I could not load.

Would you be able to take a look at the images on our listing and give me your opinion as to repro or not. Or,
if you prefer, I could send the the images. We will remove the listing and get the stein off the the market if an
expert such as yourself actually confirms that it is not righteous.

.

Thanks in advance for your time.
Bill & Beth

Hello Bill & Beth ,

Nice of you to write,

 It bothers me that you were not able to go to the other pages from the page you were on.
All one has to do is go to the index on the right side and click on any page.
 It should go there automatically ! Try again please and let me know.

The stein is very definitely is a modern reproduction.  The same company produced those shown below  (and attached)  as well as yours, except yours is a naval stein design on the body!

 [1] The lids are identical and are nowhere near the originals. (See the first two pages)

 [2] The banding designs on all of them were changed to give the appearance of being different steins,   but they are all essentially the same.
Another  major indicator  (beside the lid) for this series is that they ALL  have the Bavarian Lion thumblift – while some show state stripes from Bavaria, also Baden, and the older tan design that was used for several States back in the early 1890’s.

and in your case: The kicker is that it is a “Naval stein” and Bavaria being landlocked only had one boat and that was the King’s barge . to go sailing on the rivers with.

These two (just below) are shown on:  “Reservist’s (Regimental) reproduction beer steins. How to tell [4] Photos”

  [SC]

 

Patterned State Strips = used on early reservist steins.   [SC]

I dug back into my regimental repro photo data file. Attached are some others in the series of ones like yours  (besides the two shown just above) and including the third down, a “Naval”,  that is almost identical to yours, again with the Bavarian Lion thumblift 

ATTACHMENTS =

   

Red and black = Wurttemberg State Stripes [SC]

.

Black, white and red = Imperial Germany Stripes, not Bavarian!  [SC]

None existent State Stripes. It should have the Imperial colors as just above.  [SC]

Any further info needed – anytime!  Feel free to write.

 Steve   –   It is great to meet an honest eBay dealer!

Hello Steve,
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my email. I see in this last email that even the name of the sailor (Winkler) is the same as our fake stein. I have already taken the liberty of removing this item from eBay.

I will also keep your excellent web site on my ‘favorites’ list for future reference.

Again, many thanks got your time and willingness to share expertise.

[Sincerely,
Bill

[and]

Hello Steve,
In addition to the thank you note I sent earlier this morning, I did want to let you know that I now had no problem linking to the 2nd and 3rd page information in your listed index. (I did not realize this list of articles were links ). Now I know.
Thanks again,
Bill

[29]    Taken from an email to me from Chris Wheeler  (9-11), 

BTW Any idea on the identity of the attached stein?

It’s an info request from aziel_xxxxxx@yahoo.com.    If you want to reply direct please do so  

Chris

.

Hello Aziel,

[A]  Your stein has two stamped marks:

[1] the one on the left is the city mark.

[a] I do not know what city this is BUT  it is not one of the big cities of Europe.

[b] The city mark carries a date of 1771 on it.

[2] the one on the right is the maker’s mark (the Master pewterer’s mark.)

[a] I can not find out who that mark belonged to.

[b] But the mark does shows a ‘Label”  (which is a mark of Cadence) meaning the maker was the first born son in a
   “knighted” family.

[3] The style of this piece is called “a Hanseatic” tankard (stein.) This is due to the large bulbous body and the “skirt” on the bottom of the piece, that serves no use except to make it look bigger in capacity than it is.

[a] While called  “Hanseatic” it does not mean it came from one of the Haneatic cities (Bremmen,Hamberg, Lubeck, Rostock, Konigsberg, etc, etc)

[b] The fact that it looks very very much like an Scottish measure (those made in Edinburgh) leads me to believe that it was made in one of the “Low Countries” just across the English Channel from Scotland.

[c] I did think it was Scottish as soon as I saw the photo , but after seeing the marks, I realized it couldn’t be. About the only real difference between this and any Scottish piece is [*] the skirt and [**] the “thumblift rest”,  that has been molded inward on the top of the handle.

[d] Your tankard / stein has a very worn design on the body that looks like a flower in a flower pot [?], which would fit in with a Netherlands origin as they were famous for their flowers, yes??  Although it doesn’t look like a tulip, more like a sunflower.

Hope all this helps,

 Steve

[No. 30]

On 11/29/2011 10:13 PM, John W wrote:

do you know anything about this type of glass stoneware I bought this in germany , got it at a yard sale when I was in the army

JC’s Mail

(SLS: Is anyone literate anymore? Does no one ever say “Hello” anymore?)

Hello John,

Your piece is:

[1] called a Pilsner, based on its shape (most Pilsners are glass.)  Some un-enlighten may call this a small  “pokal,” but pokals should have lids, this one never did.

[2] a newer “salt glazed induced finish stoneware.” That means it was done RECENTLY after the German Gov’t imposed restriction on the use of aold slat glazing techniques due to the acid iair that process made.

[3] made as a gift for a silver anniversary.

{4] still being made in the Westerwald.

Below are a a couple of entries from my web site’s compendium for term ID:

Stoneware –  A true vitrified ceramic, but lacking the fine white color and translucency of porcelain,. Made in a process of adding regular salt into the heated kiln fired at 1100°C-1300°C.  makes it hard and impermeable after firing. Stoneware has been made in the Rhine valley in Germany as early as the 15th century. Also know as “Saltglazed Stoneware.” The Westerwald area of Germany is now the most famous area for producing this ware, although many other areas did also. Shown: A typical one liter stoneware “krug” that was later enameled on the body and an artificial clear glaze applied.

For much more good info on German stoneware please seee:  http://www.thepatriotexchange.com/pss/wester.htm

 and:

 Westerwald  – A small area in the West of Germany in the Rheinland Pfalz, Germany famous for its clay deposit and home to most of today’s beer stein manufacturers. Also called “Kannenbacker’s” land.  Steins produced from this area in the 1700’s are called by the region’s name. This area has been producing stoneware drinking vessels for 100’s of years. Hohr-Grenslausen is now the center city of the industryShown,  An old blue and gray 3 liter stoneware serving jug with incised decor.  Circa 1840. .  See also Regenberg steins and Mud steins.

[31].   2-2012

 

.

Dear Stephen,

Hi there My husband collects steins and they always seem to be plain looking to me. I’m sure my husband would cringe to hear me say that now. lol   But, I came upon something I couldn’t pass up and I was so excited to add something new and different to his collection. Excited that I had found a unique and original piece of history I knew he would be excited. He is a history buff and I let the kids give it to him for Christmas. =)

The kids and I sat down to research it so we could tell him all about it. It took me a while to realize there was no other number 61 because each person had their own number and to understand what the paintings were portraying. We couldn’t figure out how to translate it and I spend quite a bit of time on your site and another site trying to put the pieces together.

He is my stupid question. It doesn’t have the lion your always talking about. It doesn’t have a domed shaped top. The thing inside shows a man talking to a woman through a window. No lump in the handle. Shinier inside the out. Its dated 1999-1901. But it does not list the entire list of men from his group. My husband says that from what he gathers it means its a reproduction. I did not see anywhere where it says on your site that it had to have the list of men. I have seen pictures with the list of men. We are wondering who is right. Its not a big deal except to say I was proud of my find for 8.99 thinking it was authentic. He says its a great deal authentic or not because its so different. Could you settle if they have to have the list or not?

BTW out of curiosity .  Was having pictures inside what they did in the old days??? Because most of my husbands steins are pottery looking, pewter, silver and glass. I don’t think I have seen one with a picture inside and until tonight I finally figured out I had to hold it up to light to see the pictures. I just thought by looking in you see the pictures. lol
I included three pictures to show you it doesn’t have the list (as much as the kids wanted to be in the picture I left them out lol)

Kindly let me know. If he is right I have to cook his favorite meal and red velvet cake from scratch. If Im right he takes me out to dinner and no McDs lol

Carol

.
HELLO  MS. CAROL,

 LOOK FOR MY ” CAPS INSERTIONS” INTO  YOUR EMAIL  IT IS  MUCH EASIER FOR ME TO ANSWER ALL THE QUESTIONS THAT WAY AND NOT MISS MUCH .

STEVE

On 2/14/2012 5:38 AM, carol volkman wrote:
Dear Stephen,

Hi there My husband collects steins and they always seem to be plain looking to me.

I HOPE YOU HAVE LOOKED ABOUT MY SITE – WHILE THE MAJORITY OF POTTERY SOUVENIR STEINS  MADE IN THE LAST 50 YEARS ARE ALL ABOUT THE SAME,   THERE HAVE BEEN HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF EUROPEANS PRODUCING SOME REALLY NICE STUFF TO DRINK FROM.

PLEASE SEE:
http://www.steveonsteins.com/not-your-average-stein

[&]

http://www.steveonsteins.com/not-your-average-stein-1-2

 I’m sure my husband would cringe to hear me say that now. lol

 I DID

But, I came upon something I couldn’t pass up and I was so excited to add something new and different to his collection. Excited that I had found a unique and original piece of history I knew he would be excited. He is a history buff and I let the kids give it to him for Christmas. =)

The kids and I sat down to research it so we could tell him all about it. It took me a while to realize there was no other number 61 because each person had their own number and to understand what the paintings were portraying. We couldn’t figure out how to translate it and I spend quite a bit of time on your site and another site trying to put the pieces together.

THE “61” SHOWN ON THE FRONT OF YOUR STEIN (RED ON YELLOW) IS A REPRESENTATION OF THE EPULET THE SOLDIERS WORN ON THEIR SHOULDER TO TELL WHAT UNIT THEY WERE ASSIGNED TOO.

 YOURS WOULD HAVE BEEN THE:
 “INFANTRY REGIMENT 61, “von der Marwitz” (the honorary title [a person] of that one unit)
THORN” (the city of duty station)
 [then . THE YEAR DATES OF SERVICE]

ALL THIS INFO SHOULD BE  WRITTEN IN SMALL BLACK INK ON THE SCROLL JUST UNDER THE EPUTLET ON THE STEIN — YOUR PHOTO WAS VERY UNCLEAR BUT I CAN SEE SOMETHING THERE.

THE STEIN OF COURSE WAS MADE FOR THE INDIVIDUAL, [LAST NAME] ON THE FRONT TOP (WHICH IS UNCLEAR) RES. GEFT. MEANS —RESERVIST PRIVATE FIRST CLASS .[THEN HIS NAME]

He is my stupid question.

 IN THIS HOBBY THERE ARE NO STUPID QUESTIONS!    STEIN COLLECTING COULD BE CONSIDERED A SCIENCE — LEARNING ABOUT ALL OF THIS IS ABOUT AS DIFFICULT AS BEING A DOCTOR – BUT NOBODY’S PAYS YOU!
It doesn’t have the lion your always talking about. It doesn’t have a domed shaped top. The thing inside shows a man talking to a woman through a window.
THIS ‘THING INSIDE” IS A CALLED A LITHOPHANE — THIS ONE IS A STANDARD FOR INFANTRY REGIMENTS.

No lump in the handle. Shinier inside the out. Its dated 1999-1901. But it does not list the entire list of men from his group. My husband says that from what he gathers it means its a reproduction.

A GOOD ASSUMPTION BUT NOT CORRECT

I did not see anywhere where it says on your site that it had to have the list of men.

I’M GLAD TO KNOW SOMEONE IS READING THIS STUFF!

I have seen pictures with the list of men. We are wondering who is right. Its not a big deal except to say I was proud of my find for 8.99 thinking it was authentic.

THE REASON WHY YOUR STEIN HAS NO ROSTER OF SERVICE MEN IS THAT YOUR OWNER BOUGHT HIS STEIN AFTER HIS SERVICE TIME WAS UP AND HE HAD BEEN RELEASED FROM ACTIVE DUTY.   THE DECALS WERE NO LONGER AVAILABLE AND HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN 100 OF MILES AWAY FROM THE SHOP THAT FINISHED OFF ALL HIS COMPANY’S COMRADES STEINS (ONLY HIS YEAR OF OTHER SERVICE MEN IN HIS COMPANY ARE ON THE ROSTER – NOT THE TWO YEARS  OF MEN THAT WOULD HAVE COMPOSED THE ENTIRE COMPANY.

ORDERS WERE TAKEN BY THE LOCAL DECORATOR SHOPS SOME WERE TAKEN BY VISITING COMPANY SALESPERSONS.

 THE  UNIT ROSTERS WERE MADE UP AND DISTRIBUTED BY THE MILITARY AUTHORITIES AT THE BEGINNING OF EACH SERVICE YEAR –AND USED BY THE  DECAL MAKERS TO INCLUDE THE NAMES ON THE DECALS FOR THE STEINS, WHEN THEY WERE DECORATED. ( THE BLANK PORCELAIN STEIN BODIES COULD HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR YEARS.)

AND IF YOU ONLY PAID $8.99 FOR THIS . CAN I HIRE YOU TO BE A “PICKER” FOR ME ?

CONDITION IS EVERYTHING!! BUT ONE LIKE THIS ONE WOULD NORMALLY SELL AT A USA STEIN AUCTION FOR [RANGE= ($300- 400] STEIN PRICES ARE WAY DOWN FROM 5 YEARS AGO, BOTH HERE AND IN GERMANY

He says its a great deal authentic or not because its so different.

THAT ABOVE  IS UNCLEAR TO ME, BUT . I GUESS YOU KNOW

Could you settle if they have to have the list or not?

BTW out of curiosity .  Was having pictures inside what they did in the old days???
Because most of my husbands steins are pottery looking, pewter, silver and glass. I don’t think I have seen one with a picture inside and until tonight I finally figured out I had to hold it up to light to see the pictures. I just thought by looking in you see the pictures. lol

THAT IS BECAUSE YOUR STEIN IS MADE OF PORCELAIN AND NOT POTTERY,
TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THEM, READ:  
http://www.steveonsteins.com/beer-stein-dictionary-1-3-1-2-1-2-1-3

I included three pictures to show you it doesn’t have the list (as much as the kids wanted to be in the picture I left them out lol)

Kindly let me know. If he is right I have to cook his favorite meal and red velvet cake from scratch. If I’m right he takes me out to dinner and no McDs lol

 YOU ARE VERY MUCH CORRECT  – SO ENJOY YOUR STEAK!   AND WHAT IS RED VELVET CAKE ?

ANYTHING ELSE (EVER)?  JUST EMAIL AND

I HOPE YOU READ THE REST OF MY SITE’S  PAGES – THIS IS QUITE A FUN HOBBY.

STEVE

 [32]

On 2/5/2012 5:32 PM, wpopczyk wrote:
Hi Steve,

My name is Wojciech and I’m from Poland. I’ve been collecting pewter wares for some time. I have got some ancient and contemporary items in my collection. They come from my family or were bought.

I’m wondering if you could tell me something about the big stein (tankard) in the pictures,  I mean its origin of course.
 There is no mark on it.

Thanks in advance.  Wojciech Popczyk

.

Hello Wojciech.
and thank you for your email.  Always nice to hear from fellow collectors!

Please do forgive me for not answering you immediately. I have had a hell of a time here lately

I have looked at your photos a couple of times and think: this is relatively new stein. No older than say the last 100 years. There is no wear or oxidation, always two things to look for.

The 3 part hinge is made like the older ones from the 1600’s, as is that nice “double C” thumblift.   Your pewter stein’s body is molded to look like one from the 1600’s, made in Saxony (and a few other locales.)

The side scene of the woman sitting down I think comes from an original from that same time period. I can not remember which woman /  Goddess / season of the year / etc. / etc.  she is; as  there were a multitude.  After I blew the photo up a bit, I believe i see her holding what appears to be a  “T-square,”and the scene  also shows a building to the rear and a  large  stone block [?] to her lower right;  she may well represent: “ARCHITECTURE.”

However most of the older stein handles were flat. Only a very very few have the lady figure on them! And all from the 1600’s.
 The book ” Pewter of the Western World (by Hornsby) ” shows  ONLY one.  It does has the relief designs similar as on your stein’s lid and base rim.It also shows a very none prominent Caryatid, actually covered by part of the handle.

This female handle figure called a Caryatid (in English.) That is also a  silver function / form from the late 1600’s time period also .This type of figural handle was later adopted in porcelain [from my web site Compendium C”)]   [ATTACHED: A GINORI PORCELAIN EXAMPLE,  AFTER 1821] —
 Caryatid — Female figure used as a support, as in architecture, or as a handle. Shown: This Doccia porcelain stein (in the author’s collection) is 8 inches tall and oval in shape like the original ivory piece it was copied from. Being oval it is 4.2 inches wide and 5.2 inches to its longest diameter, the end with the handle.

[Also Attached is a newer version of a pewter Bacchus jug, German, circa 1850 with a caryatid. From my collection.]

The face at the end of your stein’s handle, while being really nicely done (I assume  it is of “Gambrinus, the king of beers”  – but not beer’s patron Saint!!) is not realistic with any older piece, especially the Saxon ones.  Some older pewter steins from Austria had faces at the handles’ end, but they were flattened and looked nothing like yours.(also see attached photo.)

So I think:  Circa 1950. Nice looking pewter work.
 Keeps beer really cold if you like it that way (keep in refrigerator.)
 Enjoy !

 Any thing else beer stein related, please do email me.   

Hope all this helps.

 Steve

.

[33]  Original email:
On 8/4/2012 8:34 PM, P. St.J    wrote:

I found a copper cup with a false bottom and brass rings. It has a 1/2 pint stamp with two heraldic shields. When I shook the cup it sounded like something was in the bottom. Curious, I worked on the cup and some sand fell out of the false bottom.
I was wondering if you had an idea if the cup has any value?
Let me know,
P.  St, J

Mr. S.J. ,
One good photo is worth 10, 000 words; two good ones = 20,000!
Otherwise your item is one of  maybe 50,000,000 out there
Steve (on steins)

Thank you Steve. Here’s a link to 5 photos: https://plus.google.com/photos/103610666852658683293/albums/5772546025618043681. I’ve, like the curiosity that killed the cat, opened the “false bottom” and found a lot of sand (dirt). I tried to imagine that possible the sand was put there to help the tankards not move around on ships crossing the ocean?
Let me know what you think. I’d like to sell it. I can send updated photos to show my manipulations on the bottom, if you’re interested.
Thanks again

PSJ

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Stephen L. Smith wrote

Hello Mr. St. J.,

What you have is an “Old Sheffield Plate” (English) mug, originally silvered by the rolled plate process. It has lost almost all of the plating due to use at a tavern. The marking of the size and the two verification stamps indicate pub usage. If you look close some small amount of silver is still around the edges of the rims and the piece added to the handle.  I think that handle style was in vogue about 1770 [+] or [ -] a few.

The sand was just put into give it an approximate weight of a real sterling silver piece of the same size if someone were to handle it. They used both sand and also some kind of oak planking. I don’t know which was tried first, or if different factories used different techniques. Due to the silver loss and the amount of mugs that were made, lots   may be found in much better condition,  it’s value is minimal. It would sell better as an copper mug once it was cleaned up and some more of the silver worn off.

Taken from my web site:  http://www.steveonsteins.com/silver-plated:

Silver plated steins; a review.

In Europe in the early 1700s, the social status of beer and wine drinkers was evidenced in the materials from which their drinking vessels were made. This had been going on for the hundreds of years of the medieval period. The royals, nobles and very wealthy used silver or imported Chinese porcelain. The merchant class used pewter and some rough forms of decorated stoneware. The peasant class used and re-used pewter and crude undecorated stoneware, or carved out wood for their beer drinking containers.

Anyone who did not have one, might have had a dream of owning a silver beer stein (the English call them covered tankards) to grace his fireplace mantle. The discovery of the fused (rolled) plating process by Thomas Boulsover in 1750 allowed many of the rising middle class to achieve a semblance of their dream. They could purchase articles made of what we now call “Old – Sheffield Plate” for the cost of approximately one-fourth of their “sterling” or .800 silver counterparts?

Steve (on steins)

[34] Dated 9-02-12

Hi Steve,

I found you website today and I was wondering if you can help answer a question for my family.  For the past two years I have been researching my family tree.  Last week I visited my dad and reviewed my results.  I told him how I was stymied by not being able to punching through his dad’s side of the family.  That’s when he took an old stein off the shelf.  That stein is included in the pictures below.

  All we know is that my great grandfather carried this stein with him on his voyage to NY.  We have kept the stein in the family and will continue to do so through future generations.

.

Our questions do not concern monetary value.  We are interested in knowing the following:

Can the stein can be dated to a particular time period?

Who is the king on the lid?

.

What do the markings on the bottom represent? The king, the initials, and the mark J4 or 34?

All the information I have is oral.

 My great grandfather was born in 1867 in the Vassa area of Finland.  This is a Swedish speaking area in Finland across from Sweden.

Oral tradition says that an earlier family member gave this to my great grandfather.

Again, this is a purely sentimental question.  We do not know why it was deemed to be important enough to carry on a boat voyage to America or why this one item was deemed important enough to be passed down.  For all we know this is a 19th century $.10 drinking cup his father drank from that my great grandfather kept to remember him with. The important fact is that this stein is our only link to our family history and that is important enough for us.

Thanks in advance for any knowledge that you might be able to share!

Bill J(NY)

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Sent  9-02-12

Hi,

Thanks for the email and the fun of researching something that means something to somebody!!

Your steins was made in Sweden. The form is called “tulip shaped.” by collectors.

The King of Sweden and Norway shown on the lid’s medallion is:

Charles XIV John (Karl XIV Johan) 5 February 1818 – 8 March 1844

Born: 26 January 1763, Pau, son of Jean Henri Bernadotte and Jeanne de Saint Vincent

He is known under a different name as King of Norway – Strange !! Charles III John 5 February 1818– 8 March 1844

see photo attached  check out his curly hair. 

.

THE YEAR DATE LETTER /NUMBER IS :  J4 (OR I4)  = 1839

From my site:

Year – letter / number mark – Used in SWEDEN on both silver and pewter to indicate the year items were made. The script style of the letters changed ever cycle of letters. Year – letter / number mark –

Notes: Their I and J were used together = one year.

Years 1694 to 1758 used a different type of script every 24 years, and single letters only.

 Swedish silver and pewter date marks: Date Letter Marks 1759 – 1974:

A = 1759

B = 1760

“ “ “

Y = 1781

Z = 1782

A 2 = 1783

B 2 = 1784

“ “ “

Y 2 = 1805

Z 2 = 1806

A 3 = 1807

B 3 = 1808

“ “ “

Y 3 = 1829

Z 3 = 1830

A 4 = 1831

B 4 = 1832

“ “ “

Y 4 = 1853

Z 4 = 1854

A 5 = 1855

B 5 = 1856

Bill, I don’t know who the pewter-smith was but it was “more than likely” made in Stockholm. The pewter – smith might have had an outlet in Finland but I doubt it.  Most of the stuff made in Europe was sold locally until the very late 1800’s.

Oral tradition says that an earlier family member gave this to my great grandfather.

All depend when he was born [OR]   Your G -Grd-father  might have  bought the stein  on a trip over the Gulf of Bothnia, or perhaps he departed to NYC by way of Stockholm and bought it then?  Was 1830 or 1840 the year  of his trip?

Anything else I can help you with, please advise

Steve(onsteins)

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 Red’d 9-2-12  Wow.  Thank you very much Stephen!  I called my dad and had him put the stein into his lap before I passed on your information.  He was very excited to hear about the origins of the stein.

The one solid piece of information that has been passed down was that the stein is being passed down between father and son.  The word is my great great grand father passed it to my great grandfather. It is also thought that the stein was passed to my g2 grandfather by his father.

My grandfather was born in 1902 in Brooklyn, NY. My great gf was born in Finland (spoke Swedish) around 1867. Estimate another 30 years back for my 2 ggf to 1837. Estimate another 30 years back to my 3 ggf to 1807.

You can make a case that my 3rd great grand father was given or purchased the stein around 1839/1840 or my 2 ggf acquired it at some point and passed the stein down from there.

Either way you have contributed a tremendous amount of information to our family history.  Thank you!!! I wish I could fill one of your steins with your favorite beer right now!

Btw, one last question.  What were the script initials on the bottom of the stein?  Were they the initials of the King?

Bill

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On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Stephen L. Smith wrote: Hello again Bill,

It really tickles me when I can truly help someone out with my accumulated knowledge in this field.

RE: What were the script initials on the bottom of the stein?  Were they the initials of the King?

Nope sorry, nothing that elaborate. The two with intertwined initials are the pewter-smith’s “touch-marks” (versus silver’s “hall marks.”)

And since I got this email I did a little more research and the “KING’S HEAD” touch-mark you may been referencing just indicates the stein definitely was made in  Stockholm!   The pewter-smiths were required to put their marks and the city of origin on their pieces in case there was ever a dispute; then the Pewter Guild Masters would know who to contact.

Estimate another 30 years back to my 3 ggf to 1807.    Given all that family time -line history, this gentleman would be my best SWAG.  He’d be 32 at the time and able to travel a lot, yes?

Do you have any problem with me writing up your questions / my answers  and posting them on my “QUESTIONS” web pages: = SEE SOME EXAMPLES HERE: http://www.steveonsteins.com/answers-to-questions-of-note

If you were anywhere close to me I’d take you up on that offer of the beer too!

Steve(on steins)

Thanks again Steve.  I appreciate all your research!

Feel free to use our conversation on your web site.  Edit as needed.

[35]     11-23-2012

Hi Steve,
Did not know you had a web site until I started searching for info on bronze steins. Very nice & complete. Like the search engine.

My wife found this stein in an antique shop.  I wasn’t thrilled as it didn’t look like much in the shop but she insisted it was a good one.  Get it home & it no longer looked like copper clad.  After I took pics & magnified them they looked more interesting.  Scenes look like Egyptian or Turkish with weapons including coat of mail, spears, broad axes, swords.  Minarets in the background.  It’s 7-1/2″ h & holds 1/2L. There seem to be marks on the base but can only be seen under high magnification.

Questions:
1.  Is it bronze?
2.  Is it old?
3.  Should the side dent or bent finial be fooled with?
4.  Any ideas on the 3 panels as to whether they are biblical or egyptian?

5.  Whats with the opium smoking cherubs on the lid?

Thanks for looking,

Bill P.

.

.

Questions:
1.  Is it bronze?

Nope.
The body base and lid appear to be stamped copper.  The handle is “pot metal” = zinc mostly.
All were silver plated, the process of which didn’t get to Germany until about 1850 -55, so stein is no older than that. More likely 1870’s

2.  Is it old?

see above – I guess that is considered old now, but not as old as the original, see below .

3.  Should the side dent or bent finial be fooled with?

Unless you’ve worked with copper before, and used a “smith tool” (a small hand held blue crab mallet) I’d leave it alone. It might produce a rip the base of it.

The thumblift leaning inwards toward the dome of the lid is copied from the original. Leave it alone too.
The handle is copied from the original too.

4.  Any ideas on the 3 panels as to whether they are biblical or egyptian?

Your stein was copied from a pewter stein made in Strasbourg (in Alsace = now France, about 1680-90.   (SEE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasbourg)

It is shown as Ill. 20 in the book “Pewter of the Western World” by R. Hornsby.

The scenes on this one and others of the time (a lot were made in Saxony also) are usually Greek or Latin mythological ones and sometimes carry the figures names usually in Latin, under the scenes, such as yours =”Nonui.” 

Interesting enough, I couldn’t locate anything about her, even on Google   and Google translate. Maybe you can spend more time than I did?

These scenes might be “virtues,” or “the 3 fates.” Some were of the continents, some were planets, etc.
“Patience” is on your 2nd photo, center scene.

“Sol ertia”  I could not  find either, but Sol = sun in Latin, and she holds an hour glass. = so Sun time ??

5.  Whats with the opium smoking cherubs on the lid?

Bill you have me on that one my man. I have no idea. Opium smoking does show up on steins but rarely. The best example is “A monk fornicating with the devil!”, shown on my page on “Misnomers” SEE:  http://www.steveonsteins.com/beer-stein-dictionary-1

Note: Of interest to me (and probably no one else on the planet) is why they made the body seperators with only one brass ring @ top, and one out of copper @ bottom???

Many 1600’s steins, especially roerkens came with brass separators, but usually two.  See attached photo of one of mine, doesn’t show the brass rings well but they are there, see the contrast in the colors.

Please let me know if you can find out more on info the scenes.

Steve

No 36.  1/7/2013

I have a very large three handle something made by the St. Louis Silver Co. It has quadruple by the mark. It needs to be restored but I have all the pieces I think. I have had it for years. It was given to me by my parents. It is much to pretty to be left as it is. I would like to know more about it and possibly find someone who would appreciate it as it should be.

Ms. Penny did not send along a photo of her piece. So here for the reader  is one very similar, but having only one handle, The finish on the silver plate is fairly good.

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A hand hammered, seamed,  and engraved Copper tankard, far Eastern Europe, perhaps Bulgaria, Romania or as far West as Hungary. Circa late 1600’s to mid 1700’s.

The piece certainly could be made for the large amount of Christians living locally in the Ottoman Empire, which all of the above countries were in when this was made, and /or transported from wherever it was made to Constantinople [now Istanbul] and sold at the large street markets in that city.

” .the name “Constantinople” is still used by the 300 million members of the Eastern Orthodox Church in the title of their most important figurehead, the Orthodox patriarch based in the city, referred to as “His Most Divine All-Holiness the Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch.”

My points on  determining the SWAG:

[1] The iron handle, especially with the bent upwards portion for the thumb-rest, and how it attaches to the base, and
[2]  the “condor wing” top handle attachment to the body is much more Eastern Ottoman Empire (East, across the Bosphorus) than European.  
[3] The attached chain, handle to lid is also Ottoman in style.
[4] The Ottoman Empire didn’t collapse, and thereby lose its influence in Eastern Europe, until after World War one = October 1918.

[5] However Eastern Ottomans liked to “tin” both the inside and the outside of their steins so it appears to look like silver. The only full copper piece I have seen are ones where the tin has been worn off due to use.
[6] Also however, the “spear head” / “heart shaped” end of the iron handle is more European than Eastern Ottoman.
[7] The art work / style of engraving and punch work is definitely European!
[8] The way the bottom of the stein was made – double walled and soldered together is European in style.
[9] And the flared out base has been  seen in lots of one made in / around Bohemia = Europe.
[10] Bulgaria was and still is a large producer (top 3 in reserves) of Copper in Europe. Copper would have been  cheap there.
[11] But most important: items made and used in the Islamic religion countries would have had NO images of living things on them = forbidden. So again this points to a European origin or Christian usage.

From the Compendium:

Ottoman Empire (Modern Turkey plus a lot more  land) steins – Most done in copper and highlighted with tin, not silver! All have what I call “Condor Wings” attachment to the top of the body (very distinctive.)  Shown above: An exception where the body was enameled and then painted. About a half liter, although they didn’t mark their pieces for volume. Some people have called these Islamic, this is not correct as Islam is not a place but a belief. Below: A smaller stein done with tin highlights on the copper and showing one of the  “Condor Wings.” [FWTD]

Circa 1700. [FWTD] This is another whole area of stein collecting that to mt knowledge has never been explored by steiners here in the USA; of course mostly because they are not European!

Ottoman  wine / water  server – A 14 inches tall. This form is almost identical to a pitcher made by V & B Mettlach many decades later.

MAP OF OTTOMANS : http://www.ottomansouvenir.com/img/Maps/Ottoman_Empire_Map_1359-1856.jpg

MAP OF BULGARIA:  http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3Bcrnk_timediscountb&gs_rn=2&gs_ri=serp&pq=map%20of%20bulgaria%20and%20turkey&cp=11&gs_id=m&xhr=t&q=map+of+romania&es_nrs=true&pf=p&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&oq=map+of+roma&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=b116c7e5d8f31a71&biw=1152&bih=580
.

Please advise what you think,

Steve

“Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you’re wrong.”